Velikiye Luki

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ichadwick
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Velikiye Luki

Unread postby ichadwick » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:05 pm

I've been working on a scenario for the battle around Velikiye Luki - actually two (one for the Soviets to surround it, the other for the Germans to relieve it). However, I'm having problems getting a good OOB. I used to own a game from GDW that had the OOB and starting locations, but don't have it any more. Anyone suggest a source? Or if you have the GDW game, can you scan the starting locations for me? I have a scan of the unit counters, but not the charts and start positions. Thanks.
Ian
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Re: Velikiye Luki

Unread postby ComradeP » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:53 pm

There's a Battles in Italy Velikiye Luki scenario, I could give you those starting positions, but it seems that the scale might be problematic (it would cover only a couple of hexes in-game I think).

Positions:

German:

83 ID 1 hex east of Velikiye Luki.
3 Gebirgs 1 hex east of Velikiye Luki, south of 83 ID.
Turn 2:
-291 ID arrives 2 hexes southwest of the city.
-8 PzD arrives 2 hexes northwest of the city.
-A composite Sicherung division could be formed west of the city from the security units that are arriving.
Turn 3 Gruppe Woehler arrives:
-20 Mot arrives southwest of the city.
-1st SS Motorized infantry brigade arrives southwest of the city.
-6 LW Feld arrives southwest of the city.
-205 ID arrives west of the city, although it could also be turn 4.
Turn 4:
-331 ID arrives southwest of the city.

The Germans have a large number of engineer battalions and 2 StuG units, as well as 1 or 2 medium AT units.

Soviet:
Northeast of Velikiye Luki: 2 GRC (I think).
East of Velikiye Luki: a 3rd Shock Army Rifle unit, full strength (not a numbered Rifle corps, it would represent independent divisions).
5 GRC, arriving on turn 2-3 east of the city.
You could form a composite Tank Corps of sorts from the Tank brigades arriving on turn 5.
2 MC would arrive on turn 2 or so, presumably.
8th Estonian Rifle Corps arrives turn 4-5 east of the city.

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ichadwick
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Re: Velikiye Luki

Unread postby ichadwick » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:36 pm

Thanks - will see how it fits.

Battles in Italy? Not sure why there would be a scenario for it there... a few thousand kms east of Italy!

Been scouring the Web for a good OOB or an affordable copy of the old GDW White Death game. Will continue to look...
Ian
The life so short, the craft so long to learn...
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Tomislav Uzelac
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Re: Velikiye Luki

Unread postby Tomislav Uzelac » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:26 am

ichadwick wrote:Battles in Italy? Not sure why there would be a scenario for it there...


Pieter is talking about a community scenario for the Battles in Italy game engine. Even though the original SSG game is based on the Italian campaign of 1943-45, community made scenarios cover other theatres as well (but they use the same engine). SSG games are great btw.

ichadwick wrote:Been scouring the Web for a good OOB


I checked my copy of "Zhukov's Greatest Defeat" by David Glantz in the hope that it will have some info about Velikie Luki, given that Operation Mars (which is what the book is about) is happening at the same time, and not too far away. However, I came up with nothing.

Incidentally, I'm puzzled why noone has taken up Operation Mars as a project. It has great potential IMO, because it's much bigger and it was very closely fought. The Soviets were on the offensive and they lost historically, so it could make for a really challenging scenario. :?:

dunbarrover
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Re: Velikiye Luki

Unread postby dunbarrover » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:12 pm

Hope this helps...

Boevoi Sostav Sovetskoi Armii (Combat Composition of the Soviet Army)
1 November 1942 - http://tashv.nm.ru/BoevojSostavSA/1942/19421101.html
Калининский фронт (Kalinin Front); 3 ударная армия (3rd Shock Army)

гв. ск (гвардейская стрелковая корпус)= Guards rifle corps
гв. сд (гвардейская стрелковая дивизия) = Guards rifle division
сбр (стрелковая бригада) = rifle brigade
лыжбр (лыжная бригада) = ski brigade

кап (корпусной артиллерийский полк) = corps artillery regt.
аап (армейский артиллерийский полк) = army artillery regt.
гап (гаубичный артиллерийский полк) = howitzer artillery regt.
пап (пушечный артиллерийский полк) = cannon artillery regt.
иптап (истребительно-противотанковый артиллерийский полк) anti-tank artillery regt.
минп (минометный полк) = mortar regt.
гв. мп (гвардейский минометный полк реактивной артиллерии) = Guards mortar regt. rocket artillery
огв. мдн (отдельный гвардейский минометный дивизион реактивной артиллерии) = independent Guards mortar division rocket artillery
зенап (зенитный артиллерийский полк) = anti-aircraft artillery regt.

мк (механизированный корпус) = mechanised corps
мбр = (моторизованная / механизированная бригада) = motorised brigade
тбр (танковая бригада) = tank brigade
оминб (отдельный минометный батальон) = independent mortar btn.
отп (отдельный танковый полк) = independent tank regt.
отб (отдельный танковый батальон) = independent tank btn.

одн брп (отдельный дивизион бронепоездов) = independent division armoured train

оиб (отдельный инженерный батальон) = independent engineer btn.
пмб (понтонно-мостовой батальон) = pontoon bridge btn.

MAP - Course of operations in Velikiye Luki area
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... 42W.htm#KF

Welikji Lucki encirclement thread - http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=2360

Was the GDW game "White Death" (Frank Chadwick, GDW 1979)?

There's also Atomic Games' V for Victory (www.atomicgames.com/games.html) - Hurrah for WEGO games!!!

ComradeP
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Re: Velikiye Luki

Unread postby ComradeP » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:17 pm

I'd suggest using the December OOB on the website dunbarrover linked to (just change the final date to 19421201)as a base (not the November one), as it's missing numerous reinforcements to 3rd Shock Army that arrived before the battle began or shortly afterwards. You can also compare it with the January OOB.

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spillblood
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Re: Velikiye Luki

Unread postby spillblood » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:11 am

Tomislav Uzelac wrote:
Pieter is talking about a community scenario for the Battles in Italy game engine. Even though the original SSG game is based on the Italian campaign of 1943-45, community made scenarios cover other theatres as well (but they use the same engine). SSG games are great btw.

I really need to learn Korsun Pocket. Your praises of it in some interviews have brought me to buy it at Matrix Games, but I haven't gotten into it yet. I played an old game by SSG, Panzer Battles, on the Commodore 64 (and loved it, made some scenarios for it as well), so I really want to try out their more recent games.

nikdav
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Re: Velikiye Luki

Unread postby nikdav » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:25 pm

I find this interesting map searching googlebooks preview "Germany and the Second World War:Volume 6: The Global War" page 1195
it is a perfect start point for a UOC scenario.
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nikdav
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Re: Velikiye Luki

Unread postby nikdav » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:38 pm

This is the Red Army OOB find in David Glantz "RED ARMY COMMAND CADRE (1941-1945)":

Rzhev-Sychevka-Velikie Luki Offensive (OperationMars) (25 November-16 December 1942)
Kalinin Front:
K. N. Galitsky (3rd Shock Army) (Velikie Luki)
I. P. Korchagin (2nd Mechanized Corps)
G. F. Tarasov (41st Army)
M. D. Solomatin (1st Mechanized Corps)
V. A. Iushkevich (22nd Army)
M. E. Katukov (3rd Mechanized Corps)
A. I. Zygin (39th Army)
Western Front:
V. Ia. Kolpakchi (30th Army)
V. S. Polenov (31st Army)
N. I. Kiriukhin (20th Army)
P. M. Arman and V. V. Sytnik (6th Tank Corps)
V. V. Kriukov (2nd Guards Cavalry Corps)
K. A. Semenchenko (5th Tank Corps) (14 December)
E. P. Zhuravlev (29th Army)


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