Update 12 Test

Steam Testing Branch.
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Tomislav Uzelac
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Re: Update 12 Test

Unread postby Tomislav Uzelac » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:08 pm

Vyacheslav wrote:unfortunately in the game there are no models of german ju-52 aircraft german and sea boats, and without them it is impossible to implement such a plan. I would like to know if there will be new models of these types in update 12 and are they planned at all?


Hi, we don't have any more models planned for update 12.

We will be adding new models in DLC, when we add new campaigns. The work on that starts soon :)

Cheers!

JBerg2021
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Re: Update 12 Test

Unread postby JBerg2021 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:35 am

First, I want to say this is an amazing expansion of the game and I'm really looking forward to playing it. The main reason I'm posting, though, is to recommend some unit roster changes to the late italian campaign missions, mainly the ahistorical scenarios. I've noticed that the British 5th, 46th, and 56th divisions, Canadian 1st, and Indian 8th and 10th divisions disappear after the capture of Rome in the ahistorical scenarios, while the Brazilians and 10th Mtn Division show up far earlier than they would have historically. Add to that the somewhat odd inclusion of US units in the British Army (which happened only rarely) and I think I've identified some shuffling that could occur. I also would say that the absence of the 5th British isn't that surprising, since that unit underwent extensive refit and hardly appeared in the Italian Campaign again.

Lombardy-Liguria: Since this is supposed to be the US 5th Army in August of 1944, the force should probably actually be smaller. The 10th Mtn Division didn't even arrive in Italy until late December 1944. I'm actually a little curious, considering the timing, why the drive through Lombardy and Liguria doesn't change Operation Dragoon (maybe it does - I didn't check). Regardless, though a naval invasion of Southern France does make some sense (in order to outflank the mountains), it would also make sense for some of the troops that would have been used in Dragoon to be crossing overland instead. If no change to the other scenario is preferable, however, than I would suggest replacing the 10th Mtn with the 92nd Infantry (even though this unit didn't enter combat until late August). Another option would be to move the SA 6th Armoured Division, since that was part of the US IV Corps.

Ljubljana Gap & Final Vienna Award: In both scenarios, the US 92nd, 10th Mtn, and FEB are part of the 8th Army. Besides feeling just a little bit off (why would Clark let that happen?) the other units I identified above are also missing. I would recommend replacing those three units in both scenarios with the Canadian 1st Division, 8th Indian, and 10th Indian. I would also like to see the 46th and 56th show back up in the British 8th Army, at least for the latter mission. As mentioned above, the SA 6th Armoured was a part of the US IV Corps, so you could also swap that unit with either or both of the 46th and 56th.

Liberation of Bohemia: This is really just a case of missing units (though by this time the Canadians had officially been transferred to Europe, so 'bye bye' Cd 5th Arm), and while I can definitely see a case to be made for resting units, it really would make more sense for the Br 46th and 56th, Cd 1st, and In 8th and 10th to be involved in this battle. Maybe some of the units are busy garrisoning Yugoslavia and Greece, but for a major offensive (and defense against a German offensive), some of them would likely show up as reinforcements at least. Also, this is the first battle the 10th Mtn Division could actually participate in based on its historical arrival in Europe. They can at least be trained troops (instead of Green), but I'm not sure anyone would let them hang out by themselves in the Alps. That's probably where the 10th Indian Division goes instead.

Again, I want to express how impressed I am with this update/expansion. But these Italian unit issues have been bugging me for a while and I figured I'd express myself.

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Danielefc
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Re: Update 12 Test

Unread postby Danielefc » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:44 pm

JBerg2021 wrote:First, I want to say this is an amazing expansion of the game and I'm really looking forward to playing it. The main reason I'm posting, though, is to recommend some unit roster changes to the late italian campaign missions, mainly the ahistorical scenarios. I've noticed that the British 5th, 46th, and 56th divisions, Canadian 1st, and Indian 8th and 10th divisions disappear after the capture of Rome in the ahistorical scenarios, while the Brazilians and 10th Mtn Division show up far earlier than they would have historically. Add to that the somewhat odd inclusion of US units in the British Army (which happened only rarely) and I think I've identified some shuffling that could occur. I also would say that the absence of the 5th British isn't that surprising, since that unit underwent extensive refit and hardly appeared in the Italian Campaign again.

Lombardy-Liguria: Since this is supposed to be the US 5th Army in August of 1944, the force should probably actually be smaller. The 10th Mtn Division didn't even arrive in Italy until late December 1944. I'm actually a little curious, considering the timing, why the drive through Lombardy and Liguria doesn't change Operation Dragoon (maybe it does - I didn't check). Regardless, though a naval invasion of Southern France does make some sense (in order to outflank the mountains), it would also make sense for some of the troops that would have been used in Dragoon to be crossing overland instead. If no change to the other scenario is preferable, however, than I would suggest replacing the 10th Mtn with the 92nd Infantry (even though this unit didn't enter combat until late August). Another option would be to move the SA 6th Armoured Division, since that was part of the US IV Corps.

Ljubljana Gap & Final Vienna Award: In both scenarios, the US 92nd, 10th Mtn, and FEB are part of the 8th Army. Besides feeling just a little bit off (why would Clark let that happen?) the other units I identified above are also missing. I would recommend replacing those three units in both scenarios with the Canadian 1st Division, 8th Indian, and 10th Indian. I would also like to see the 46th and 56th show back up in the British 8th Army, at least for the latter mission. As mentioned above, the SA 6th Armoured was a part of the US IV Corps, so you could also swap that unit with either or both of the 46th and 56th.

Liberation of Bohemia: This is really just a case of missing units (though by this time the Canadians had officially been transferred to Europe, so 'bye bye' Cd 5th Arm), and while I can definitely see a case to be made for resting units, it really would make more sense for the Br 46th and 56th, Cd 1st, and In 8th and 10th to be involved in this battle. Maybe some of the units are busy garrisoning Yugoslavia and Greece, but for a major offensive (and defense against a German offensive), some of them would likely show up as reinforcements at least. Also, this is the first battle the 10th Mtn Division could actually participate in based on its historical arrival in Europe. They can at least be trained troops (instead of Green), but I'm not sure anyone would let them hang out by themselves in the Alps. That's probably where the 10th Indian Division goes instead.

Again, I want to express how impressed I am with this update/expansion. But these Italian unit issues have been bugging me for a while and I figured I'd express myself.


Hey man and thanks for the extensive feedback!

You make some very valid points. Here are some of the reasons for the chosen units:

1. US 10th mountain is added earlier in the alt track since it is a cool unit and I was sad not to be able to utilize it more in the historical campaign. I am aware that it was still being trained at the time. "Rushed into service due to the unexpected success in Italy and probable need for more divisions" is the justification.

2. In this alternative history the US Chiefs of staff are unwilling to support Churchill's adventurous Ljubljana strategy. But knowing Clark... as you say he would not want to "give divisions". But(!) he would also not want to forego an opportunity for glory even if it is a silly undertaking. And this can only happen if the beginnings are successful. So he manages to justify a temporary transfer of the new 10th Mountain, 92. ID and the FEB. Officially for testing their actual capabilities, unofficially to cover up the disagreements between the Allies to the outside world.

3. Bohemia and "missing" units. As you say, they are on security duty/resting/flank protection in Italy and towards the ever-unstable Balkans. I've heard some concerns that Liberation of Bohemia is a bit on the hard side. If this concern turns out to be valid I'll be sure to use your suggestions when/if adding additional Allied units.

Cheers!

JBerg2021
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Re: Update 12 Test

Unread postby JBerg2021 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:21 pm

I appreciate getting your thoughts and perspective. I'll start by saying, I get all those points and accept them. Just two things do irritate me though... :oops:

1. The 10th Mountain Division appears in both Lombardy-Liguria and Ljubljana Gap. That means the unit is essentially in two places at the same time. I do really think that it makes sense to take that unit out of one of the scenarios (for plausibility, probably removing from Ljubljana Gap since a newly arrived green unit would probably be assigned the easier task of clearing Lombardy - and you get to see them if you miss triggering Ljubljana Gap).

2. The 1st Canadian Division straight up disappears - that's not very nice to those hard-fighting soldiers. Wherever the 5th Canadian Armored goes, the 1st Canadian Infantry should probably go as well. That makes for an easy switch in the Ljubljana Gap (switch out 10th Mountain for 1st Canadian).

3. The 5th Canadian Armored should be removed from Liberation of Bohemia and sent to Northwestern Europe to be with its fellow countrymen. I admittedly haven't looked at Ruhr Assault, Operation Stapler, or Dash to Berlin to see if the Canadians are present in those scenarios, so maybe it doesn't matter, but it does make sense that the Canadians would bring themselves all back together under one army. He could be replaced by the British or Indian divisions I've mentioned - historically, very few troops were needed to garrison Greece, though I realize Yugoslavia (or Croatia, really) would be a bigger handful.

That's it, I've said my peace now.

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Danielefc
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Re: Update 12 Test

Unread postby Danielefc » Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:24 pm

RE: 10th mountain being a bit "magical". Will be fixed and your solution works perfectly.

RE: Canadian armor... oh dear, I even remember making a specific note of this transfer, and yet still messed it up. It doesn't even matter if it does or doesn't appear in the alt history up there, as the two theaters need to be able to mix and match. Good catch, it will be fixed.

These fixes won't happen until Monday's update though

Cheers!

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Re: Update 12 Test

Unread postby spillblood » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:04 pm

Tried Final Vienna Award two times. Very hard scenario, and I'm using the normal difficulty savegame. On the second run I managed to take Vienna, but didn't make it to the "Break Into Bohemia" objective. I wonder if it would be easier if there was a preceding campaign playthough up to this point. Lombardy-Liguria: Should this be available with the savegame? Because at least the normal difficulty savegame has this already finished.
Regarding performance: There seem to be definite improvements in that regard. I'm playing on an old Intel Core2Quad with 8GB of RAM, Windows 10 and NVdia GTX 660.
Also played through Fortress Holland. Nice small scenario, relatively easy, at least with the units provided with the savegame.

Guderian21
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Re: Update 12 Test

Unread postby Guderian21 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:32 am

I decided to test the new content, and I'll share my thoughts over a few posts. I reinstalled the game, as I hadn't played in months. Previously played through twice on Normal difficulty. I decided to play through on Easy in order to speed up getting to the new content, and resolved myself to Gold Star every mission. I easily met this on every mission that had previously been available, except Market Garden, which I did restart in order to secure the optional objectives and ensure access to the ahistorical missions. I will note roughly how many attempts I needed in each mission to get a gold star on Easy mode, so that difficulty comparison is possible.

My thoughts on Update 12 and general game issues:

Lombardy-Ligueria: (2 attempts, wasn't paying attention to the turn requirements for Gold the first time, as the scenario was so simple that I forgot to look) Not much to say overall, very few moving pieces. It makes sense to include for completeness sake, but otherwise the overall level of complexity is a sharp decrease from everything else in the game.

Fortress Holland: (1 attempt) The number of German units was intimidating at first, but their low quality meant they were mostly annihilated by turn 4-5. All objectives comfortably taken. Much like Lombardy, this scenario was a huge step down in difficulty/complexity, which is actually welcome given some of the upcoming battles.

Push to the Ruhr: (5 attempts) This was a welcome step up in difficulty from the historical campaign. I had issues with capturing 3 different objectives on different attempts, it wasn't the same one that I couldn't get in time every time. Once it was Panzergrenadiers in Bonn that my tanks couldn't dislodge, once it was entrenched infantry in Wesel that I couldn't get engineers to in time. The worst was Emmerich, where a panzer division swapped with the infantry garrison the turn before I needed it. It really feels like there are several fronts to manage here, divert too many forces north to get the optional objective at the river and you risk not clearing the south fast enough for gold. On one of my attempts, nearly all of the tanks in the north were wiped out by German armor coming up from the south, but thanks to liberal bridge destruction I wasn't able to capitalize very efficiently in the south. The balancing act is really affected by the optional objective in the northeast.

Saar-Vosgues Offensive: (2 attempts) I failed to devote enough forces to capture Strasbourg on time. You almost have to divert some of your forces to the center, and give ground in the north in order to have enough push towards Strasbourg since the AI will cluster panzer divisions there. I don't think that the southern forces have a realistic chance of making this objective on time for gold without reinforcement from the north, which is fine. I do think that this is the first scenario that has forced me to reorient my forces significantly though. Once Strasbourg falls, the rest of the map is gobbled up pretty quickly.

I'll post on more scenarios tomorrow, but there are a couple of general issues that I want to comment on.

1: stragglers/replacements. With all the units switching armies between battles, many of my armies end up with replacements at HQ that they can never deploy. This was most annoying in northern Italy and Bohemia. The British army there ends up with Brazilian infantry in the reserves, but the only Brazilian division switches back to the American army. The polish forces switch command at some point. Several American/British armies end up with British/American replacements in their reserve that can never be deployed. I can think of several ways to fix this, but most of them have issues of their own. Maybe just allow two armies present in the same battle to exchange reserves during deployment?

2: paratroops. Why to they have to be dropped turn one? On specific, controlled maps, like Normandy or Sicily they work well. In Ruhr Assault and Unthinkable they just get swallowed up and annihilated. I either drop them at the front line and they may as well have started on the ground, or I drop them to interdict enemy supply for a turn before they die. Both of these maps have rivers to cross, which limits the ability to link up with behind the lines paratroopers in a timely manner. I guess I should really be using them immediately behind the rivers that need to be crossed, but it feels like a pretty minimal effect on maps this large. I suspect that they will still be killed on the first AI turn regardless. If I could wait to drop them behind the lines, I would be able to better support a breakout when it happens.

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Danielefc
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Re: Update 12 Test

Unread postby Danielefc » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:10 am

@Spillblood

Hey man,
whoops if I completed that one :oops:

It is the smallest of the new scenarios and I'm not really worried about anything in that one, so no biggie. If you wan't to try it then there is always standalone :)

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Danielefc
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Re: Update 12 Test

Unread postby Danielefc » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:22 am

Guderian21 wrote:I decided to test the new content, and I'll share my thoughts over a few posts. I reinstalled the game, as I hadn't played in months. Previously played through twice on Normal difficulty. I decided to play through on Easy in order to speed up getting to the new content, and resolved myself to Gold Star every mission. I easily met this on every mission that had previously been available, except Market Garden, which I did restart in order to secure the optional objectives and ensure access to the ahistorical missions. I will note roughly how many attempts I needed in each mission to get a gold star on Easy mode, so that difficulty comparison is possible.

My thoughts on Update 12 and general game issues:

Lombardy-Ligueria: (2 attempts, wasn't paying attention to the turn requirements for Gold the first time, as the scenario was so simple that I forgot to look) Not much to say overall, very few moving pieces. It makes sense to include for completeness sake, but otherwise the overall level of complexity is a sharp decrease from everything else in the game.

Fortress Holland: (1 attempt) The number of German units was intimidating at first, but their low quality meant they were mostly annihilated by turn 4-5. All objectives comfortably taken. Much like Lombardy, this scenario was a huge step down in difficulty/complexity, which is actually welcome given some of the upcoming battles.

Push to the Ruhr: (5 attempts) This was a welcome step up in difficulty from the historical campaign. I had issues with capturing 3 different objectives on different attempts, it wasn't the same one that I couldn't get in time every time. Once it was Panzergrenadiers in Bonn that my tanks couldn't dislodge, once it was entrenched infantry in Wesel that I couldn't get engineers to in time. The worst was Emmerich, where a panzer division swapped with the infantry garrison the turn before I needed it. It really feels like there are several fronts to manage here, divert too many forces north to get the optional objective at the river and you risk not clearing the south fast enough for gold. On one of my attempts, nearly all of the tanks in the north were wiped out by German armor coming up from the south, but thanks to liberal bridge destruction I wasn't able to capitalize very efficiently in the south. The balancing act is really affected by the optional objective in the northeast.

Saar-Vosgues Offensive: (2 attempts) I failed to devote enough forces to capture Strasbourg on time. You almost have to divert some of your forces to the center, and give ground in the north in order to have enough push towards Strasbourg since the AI will cluster panzer divisions there. I don't think that the southern forces have a realistic chance of making this objective on time for gold without reinforcement from the north, which is fine. I do think that this is the first scenario that has forced me to reorient my forces significantly though. Once Strasbourg falls, the rest of the map is gobbled up pretty quickly.

I'll post on more scenarios tomorrow, but there are a couple of general issues that I want to comment on.

1: stragglers/replacements. With all the units switching armies between battles, many of my armies end up with replacements at HQ that they can never deploy. This was most annoying in northern Italy and Bohemia. The British army there ends up with Brazilian infantry in the reserves, but the only Brazilian division switches back to the American army. The polish forces switch command at some point. Several American/British armies end up with British/American replacements in their reserve that can never be deployed. I can think of several ways to fix this, but most of them have issues of their own. Maybe just allow two armies present in the same battle to exchange reserves during deployment?

2: paratroops. Why to they have to be dropped turn one? On specific, controlled maps, like Normandy or Sicily they work well. In Ruhr Assault and Unthinkable they just get swallowed up and annihilated. I either drop them at the front line and they may as well have started on the ground, or I drop them to interdict enemy supply for a turn before they die. Both of these maps have rivers to cross, which limits the ability to link up with behind the lines paratroopers in a timely manner. I guess I should really be using them immediately behind the rivers that need to be crossed, but it feels like a pretty minimal effect on maps this large. I suspect that they will still be killed on the first AI turn regardless. If I could wait to drop them behind the lines, I would be able to better support a breakout when it happens.


Hi!

Cheers for the feedback.

RE: Lombardy-Liguria
It is working as intended then ;). Personal preference maybe, but I prefer it when the scale and (to an extent) the difficulty changes pace now and then. Lest things get boring/frustrating.
RE: Fortress Holland
Hehe, I see you actually agree on this then ;)
RE: The rest
Glad to hear they are hitting a good spot for you.

RE: stragglers
Yes. This is an issue in the game design itself. We will be looking into solving it in the future, but not for update 12.

RE: paras
They are limited to turn 1 mainly for balancing and a tad of realism. You may have noticed how super powerful the para cards are... Now imagine having what is essentially 3-5 free of those in a scenario. It would fall apart.
If you drop them in good terrain and a nice annoying location for the AI they are still very very useful. In Unthinkable I'm not even sure the scenario is beatable if they are not put to good use (you get all the five "big ones" in that scenario).

Thanks again for the extensive feedback!

Cheers!

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Re: Update 12 Test

Unread postby Billy Bob Joe » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:08 am

Just wondering, when will Update 12 be coming out officially? I heard that you had an update planned for today, but didn't know if that was for the test version or the final version. Thanks for all this hard work! And really excited to play around with the Ruskies in the editor.