Orel/Briansk--Help!

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MarkClark
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Orel/Briansk--Help!

Unread postby MarkClark » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:07 pm

I just cannot see my way to winning this. The supply situation seems to make it impossible. How can you possibly reach Novogrod by turn 6, in supply? The only way, it seems to me, is to take Briansk and then make the rail link south. But this cannot be done in the timeframe called for by the game.

If you try to just push west, you will be out of supply quickly, even if you use every supply point on that southeastern depot.

I just don't see a way.

juoc
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Re: Orel/Briansk--Help!

Unread postby juoc » Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:38 am

I push west, while keeping units supplied. See to that your tanks are supplied on turn 4 and then get as close to Novgorod as possible on turn 5 without worrying about supply, preferably west of the river. Use 3 partisans to cut off Novgorod by turn 2, that helps a lot. Don't be afraid to waste some infantry taking out the two southern panzers on turn one (less units that can block you on your way to Novgorod). Use infantry to encircle Orel and just defend the supply center leading to Briansk initially.

MarkClark
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Re: Orel/Briansk--Help!

Unread postby MarkClark » Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:56 am

Thanks for the reply.

I don't see how it's possible to take out two tanks in the south on turn one. I can get one (of three) at most. All other attacks show 5:0 odds. The Russian units, including the tanks, are kittens, everywhere. They can't do shit.

Also, how are partisans supposed to be used? I know that if you get four hexes around a rail line you can cut supply, but in my games, as soon as I get down two, the AI always goes and re-takes those hexes. In practice, I find that partisans are not quite useless, but really are only good for diverting units.

MarkClark
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Re: Orel/Briansk--Help!

Unread postby MarkClark » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:17 am

How on earth can you take Novogord by turn 6? There is no fucking way. I can't even get into supply until around turn 9.

Impossible scenario. Bad balance. needs to be fixed.

MarkClark
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Re: Orel/Briansk--Help!

Unread postby MarkClark » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:44 am

Why are the Russians so hopeless? Seven-step tanks get crushed by three step infantry!

MarkClark
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Re: Orel/Briansk--Help!

Unread postby MarkClark » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:50 am

7-step Russian tank against 4 step German tank. Odds against the Russians: 3:0.

Ok, WTF?

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Danielefc
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Re: Orel/Briansk--Help!

Unread postby Danielefc » Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:14 am

If you want Soviet armour to go up against German armour and beat it head on - then it needs attachments (T-34s, KV1s, NKVD, deployed arty.... etc.). Also - try gaining veterancy for your armour by killing infantry units before(!) attacking enemy armour.

Anyway thats not the issue in this scenario. Rather its the same issue as you had with Rostov. And its going to show its face in most Soviet Scenarios: You cannot take out German units "head on". You have to use your superior numbers to outmaneuver Germans.

The following basic principles can be used in almost every Soviet scenario (ands its pretty much how the Red Army & Allies operated in World War 2):

Step one: Locate Weaknesses in the german supply network - or - locate opportunities for grand encirclements. Usually supplies are the best target.

Step two: Use infantry(!!!!) to weaken or to create one (or more) holes in the German line. This is a costly affair. But as long as an attack surpresses just one step, then its a success. Rotate the infantry attacks until the German line is weak enough to be overrun by your armour.

Step three: Pour through the gap with every mobile unit available.

Step four: The German units that are cut off will now have one turn to counter-attack. After that they are doomed as they can no longer attack because they are out of supply. Then you can mop them up with whatever is left of your infantry while the armour keeps rolling towards the objectives.


As for the Orel/Bryansk scenario specifically: Here is a BV replay:
Orel BrianskBV001.usg


(Note the use of partisans as well)
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MarkClark
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Re: Orel/Briansk--Help!

Unread postby MarkClark » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:18 pm

So I have played this now several times and done quite well. That is, I can get Orel before turn 7, and Briansk on or even before turn 6. But Novogorod by 6? No way.

Here's the issue: the Russians have three supply sources. The northern two are on rail lines, the southern one appears to be but in fact is not. It begins with a range of 8. You have one additional supply boost per turn. So you can immediately pump it to 9 and then up it by one level per turn thereafter.

However, that's not enough to get you to Novogorod in supply on time. So, you can either proceed west cautiously so that all our units are in supply, or else overrun your supply lines. If you do the latter, then you can reach Novogorod on time, but your units won't be able to attack it.

The other alternative seems to be to take Briask as early as possible and route supply through that north-south rail line. But that starts out only at 3, so to do that you'd need to use your supply boost every turn on that line, not in the south. Which means that as your southern units push west they will be out of supply even sooner because you're not boosting their southern supply depot. And, I have found, I cannot get Briansk early enough to make Novogorod viable before turn 6, or even close.

Add to that: it’s not just going up against tanks head-on. ALL Russian units are total kittens. A 7 step tank routinely gets crushed by half-strength German infantry. You have two choices: trade five steps for one in any attack, thereby just giving your units away until you don’t have enough to complete the objectives, or else waiting until all the Germans are hopelessly out of supply, at which point you can finally kill them but it will be way too late to take any objectives. In fact, for nearly all of my units, the odds are 5:0, 4:0, 3:0 even when the Germans are two turns out of supply. They have to be the full three turns, or you are dead.

Finally, there simply aren’t enough Russian units in play to complete and hold encirclements. The AI always finds a way through my lines to cut my supply, which I of course cannot do to it, barring massive losses that make achieving the objectives impossible.

All the others so far I have been able to figure out, sometimes with help (like Rostov). But this one seems insanely out of balance.

MarkClark
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Re: Orel/Briansk--Help!

Unread postby MarkClark » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:27 pm

BTW, I've spend the entire STAVKA reserve fund on attachments, they don't seem to help at all. They're suppressed most of the time anyway but even when they aren't, they still seem to have no effect. The Germans are just Nazi Supermen while the Russians are kittens.

Don't the developers realize the Russians actually won the war? They must have had something going for them ...

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Danielefc
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Re: Orel/Briansk--Help!

Unread postby Danielefc » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:39 pm

MarkClark wrote:So I have played this now several times and done quite well. That is, I can get Orel before turn 7, and Briansk on or even before turn 6. But Novogorod by 6? No way.

Here's the issue: the Russians have three supply sources. The northern two are on rail lines, the southern one appears to be but in fact is not. It begins with a range of 8. You have one additional supply boost per turn. So you can immediately pump it to 9 and then up it by one level per turn thereafter.

However, that's not enough to get you to Novogorod in supply on time. So, you can either proceed west cautiously so that all our units are in supply, or else overrun your supply lines. If you do the latter, then you can reach Novogorod on time, but your units won't be able to attack it.

The other alternative seems to be to take Briask as early as possible and route supply through that north-south rail line. But that starts out only at 3, so to do that you'd need to use your supply boost every turn on that line, not in the south. Which means that as your southern units push west they will be out of supply even sooner because you're not boosting their southern supply depot. And, I have found, I cannot get Briansk early enough to make Novogorod viable before turn 6, or even close.

Add to that: it’s not just going up against tanks head-on. ALL Russian units are total kittens. A 7 step tank routinely gets crushed by half-strength German infantry. You have two choices: trade five steps for one in any attack, thereby just giving your units away until you don’t have enough to complete the objectives, or else waiting until all the Germans are hopelessly out of supply, at which point you can finally kill them but it will be way too late to take any objectives. In fact, for nearly all of my units, the odds are 5:0, 4:0, 3:0 even when the Germans are two turns out of supply. They have to be the full three turns, or you are dead.

Finally, there simply aren’t enough Russian units in play to complete and hold encirclements. The AI always finds a way through my lines to cut my supply, which I of course cannot do to it, barring massive losses that make achieving the objectives impossible.

All the others so far I have been able to figure out, sometimes with help (like Rostov). But this one seems insanely out of balance.


Its all in the replay above.

Spend all your supply on the north eastern source. Once you capture Orel it will provide supplies towards Novgorod just as well as the Southern source had you increased that one. With the added benefit that it also provides supplies for the drive on Bryansk.

A seven step tank will not get crushed by a half step german infantry - ever.

The "trade" is not made against all German units. Its made against a few to create an encirclement or to reach a supply neck. Once this is done the german units will run out of supply and only then do you engage the rest of them. There are enough Russian units to hold encirclements - watch the replay. Its by no means a prefect playthrough but it got the job done.

MarkClark wrote:BTW, I've spend the entire STAVKA reserve fund on attachments, they don't seem to help at all. They're suppressed most of the time anyway but even when they aren't, they still seem to have no effect. The Germans are just Nazi Supermen while the Russians are kittens.

Don't the developers realize the Russians actually won the war? They must have had something going for them ...


Why are they surpressed? When initially deployed they are suppressed for one turn (to simulate arrival) other then that they should not be suppressed unless out of supply or having overrun several axis units.

And the russians had things going for them - the biggest of which was numbers. And although Soviet doctrine improved dramatically over the course of the war it never reached the same quality as the German.

Tanks for instance: IIRC each StugIII on average knocked out 2 or 3 T-34s. But that didn't do them a fat lot of good since the Soviets produced more than 5 times as many T-34s. For all its grand battles, heroism and "generalship", WW2 in the end came down to production, technology and manpower. Along with the western allies the Soviets had the Germans beaten in production and manpower - not so much in technology. The game simulates this with Soviet units that are weaker 1v1 - but with the right strategy & tactics they can just outmaneuver the most powerful German units leaving them irrelevant. For instance a standing order in the Red Army with regards to dealing with the 5th Panzer Division in 42/43 was simply "not to engage it".


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