Campaign Game

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DanL
Second Lieutenant
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Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:33 pm

Campaign Game

Unread postby DanL » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:28 am

I am very satisfied with the way individual UoC II scenarios play. I find the campaign game needs work, however.

The problem is that (at least in the early game), there are more reinforcements to be obtained through meta-gaming than through actual game play. And the meta-gaming is not fun, it is tedious.

Consider the Wadi Akarit scenario. One can earn up to 180 prestige by taking objectives. How many are available through meta-gaming? Many units will not carry over to future scenarios: 168 US RCT, DdM Constantine, 8 BR Arm Bde, L Force, and TF ´Benson´. By meticulous research, one can figure out that these units will not carry over, and cannibalize them for parts worth 250 prestige. Of course this is a gross oversimplification. Many of the parts recovered can´t actually be transferred anywhere useful. And there are other units, such as 4 Indian ID, which actually will appear much later in the game, but it is best to strip their precious specialist steps during Wadi Akarit, in order to have them available between now and then.

If I don´t like meta-gaming, you say, the solution is simple: Don´t do it. But then the opposite happens. Ignoring which units carry through and which don´t makes it terribly easy to squander hard-won reinforcements on units that will never be seen again, or at least not seen again any time soon. So, I find myself tediously scraping all the scenarios to document the order of battle, then tediously analyzing the order of battle to determine which units will pay off in the future, and which should be recycled, and then carefully juggling the process of re-organizing my army while also fighting a battle.

Actually, I rather like that last part. In a typical UoC scenario, the battle is decided and most units are freed up about halfway through. Re-organizing some while continue to actively use others keeps the game challenging during the mop-up phase.

I suggest:

1) Each unit should be designated (by the scenario designer) into one of five categories:
a) Unit carries over to future scenario. It retains all steps.
b) Unit carries over to future scenario. It retains regular steps, but specialist steps are automatically moved to the force pool. (This is for the case when the scenario where the unit returns is in the distant future.)
c) Unit will be automatically reinforced in a future scenario. Steps displaced by the reinforcement are automatically moved to the force pool.
d) Unit will never be seen again. All of its steps are returned to the force pool.
e) Unit will never be seen again. A certain value of steps will go with it. If the unit is understrength or absent, the necessary steps will be deducted from prestige, or the force pool, or another unit. If the unit is overstrength, the excess will be returned to the force pool.
Each of the five categories is fair to the player and either not gameable, or not worth gaming.

2) Document how this stuff works. I don´t think it is necessary to actually know which category each unit is actually in, as long as it is clear that meta-gaming is futile.

3) How about some re-org objectives as part of the scenario objectives? Like: The optional bonus scenario is available if you can get at least four full strength armored divisions across the river. The units available in the bonus scenario are the ones on the other side of the river when time runs out. Or: Units on the far side of the river at the end of this scenario will be available at the beginning of the next scenario. Units on the near side of the river will become available on turn 3. Or: Unit XXX will be tasked with breaking through the fortified enemy line at the beginning of the next operation. Reinforce it appropriately. (Actually, this last one could just be a sentence in the scenario briefing.)

Eskuche
First Lieutenant
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Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:16 pm

Re: Campaign Game

Unread postby Eskuche » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:19 pm

Totally agree with this. Have a hard time getting into the campaign for this reason. No obvious progression like for example panzer corps or OOB. Could you please post or private message me your notes? Was thinking to go through today to do it but would rather not spend the three hours if you’ve done it already.

DanL
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:33 pm

Re: Campaign Game

Unread postby DanL » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:06 pm

All I´ve really figured out are the first two scenarios. Here is a summary:

Cannibalize - Recover all steps from this unit.
Strip - Recover specialist steps from this unit.
Pimp - Reinforce this unit as much as possible.
Engineer - Reinforce this unit with at least an engineer and an artillery.

Wadi Akarit
US II:
  • Pimp: 1 US Armd, 1 US ID
  • Cannibalize: TF Benson
British 8th:
  • Pimp: 7 BR Armd
  • Engineer: 50 BR ID
  • Strip: 4 Indian ID
  • Cannibalize: 8 BR Arm Bde, L Force
(Cannibalizing L Force may be a waste of time. If British 8th ever gets free french units again, it is far enough in the future that I haven´t found it.)

British 1st:
  • Pimp: 34 US ID
  • Cannibalize: 168 US RCT, DdM Constantine
Tunis
US II:
  • Pimp: 1 US ID
  • Strip: 1 US Armd, 34 US ID, 9 US ID
  • Cannibalize: CFA
British 8th:
  • Strip: 2 NZD
(2 NZD is next seen in Volturno as an armoured division! I don´t know what impact cannibalizing it now might have on the conversion process.)

British 1st:
  • Cannibalize: 1 BR Armd, 4 BR ID, 6 BR Armd
  • Pimp: 7 BR Armd, 46 BR ID, 201 Gds Mot Bde, 1 BR ID, 4 Indian ID
(Since the force pool of the British 1st will be lost, only cannibalize units if you can transfer the steps into other units before the end of the scenario.)
(Units listed for pimping all return, but not all at the same time. So, reinforce these units in the order listed, fully filling out each unit before proceeding to the next.)

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pendant
First Lieutenant
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Re: Campaign Game

Unread postby pendant » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:41 pm

Sticking my oar in with my tuppence: I haven't done any of this metagaming but it's clear from the above two posts how tedious and not-fun this would be.

It would be far more satisfying to be able to chart the progress of individual units; deciding whether or not to risk, say, an elite unit to which one has become emotionally attached during the course of a campaign would add significantly to the experience, in my opinion.

DanL
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:33 pm

Re: Campaign Game

Unread postby DanL » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:00 am

In my first campaign, I approached the meta-gaming problem differently. Instead of looking at future scenarios to predict what would be needed, I just stripped as many units as possible of specialist steps, to allow me flexibility in the preparation phase of the next scenario. Then I hit a scenario that had no preparation phase, and I had no specialist steps on the crucial first turn. So, I abandoned that campaign.

I started a new campaign where I swore I would not make the same mistake again. I´m not sure yet, but I´m pretty sure that I made a mistake in Husky that will make Overlord unwinnable, and I will once again need to start over. (I cannibalized 2 US CCA, and was trying to cannibalize 2 US CCB, when a supply disruption caused me to instead reduce it to a single step.)

The campaign game has frustratingly high stakes. If you make one mistake, your campaign is lost, and you might not even realize it until hours later.

Eskuche
First Lieutenant
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:16 pm

Re: Campaign Game

Unread postby Eskuche » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:37 pm

I've gone through a lot of restarts as well on Classic (first time UoC player). While I was busy trying to make an OoB from scratch, there is a handmade, nicely formatted version on the last page of this steam discussion made by user Timms:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/809230/d ... 145/?ctp=3
This spreadsheet lists the final appearance of units as well as filterable by army and map designations for each unit.
On top of that, I've denoted where units switch armies in case I want to swap certain limited or perhaps nation-specific specialists over.

I've found cannabilizing the last two turns of a scenario are the best. Also, when the game says that it's reinforced a unit, all its pre-existing specialists return to the command pool (like in the beginning of Husky). I was terribly worried about disappearing specs but it turns out that's not an issue.

DanL
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:33 pm

Re: Campaign Game

Unread postby DanL » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:32 pm

Thanks for Update 11!
The ¨number of scenarios this unit has left¨ indicator completely addresses my complaint.
Also, I´m impressed at how elegant the solution is. Great job!

Articwulf
Captain
Posts: 36
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Re: Campaign Game

Unread postby Articwulf » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:55 pm

Eskuche wrote:I've gone through a lot of restarts as well on Classic (first time UoC player). While I was busy trying to make an OoB from scratch, there is a handmade, nicely formatted version on the last page of this steam discussion made by user Timms:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/809230/d ... 145/?ctp=3
This spreadsheet lists the final appearance of units as well as filterable by army and map designations for each unit.
On top of that, I've denoted where units switch armies in case I want to swap certain limited or perhaps nation-specific specialists over.

I've found cannabilizing the last two turns of a scenario are the best. Also, when the game says that it's reinforced a unit, all its pre-existing specialists return to the command pool (like in the beginning of Husky). I was terribly worried about disappearing specs but it turns out that's not an issue.



Is there a new location for this file? Its been removed from the spot the user provided it.

Adronio
Colonel
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Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:05 pm

Re: Campaign Game

Unread postby Adronio » Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:48 am

Articwulf wrote:Is there a new location for this file? Its been removed from the spot the user provided it.


You dont really need it anymore:

DanL wrote:Thanks for Update 11!
The ¨number of scenarios this unit has left¨ indicator completely addresses my complaint.
Also, I´m impressed at how elegant the solution is. Great job!

NightPhoenix
Captain
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:22 pm

Re: Campaign Game

Unread postby NightPhoenix » Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:11 pm

Although i sympathise with the poster of the original statement, i really don't think that the game is so overwhelmingly hard that you need to do all this metagaming. Yes on classic the missions are challenging but even without specific knowledge on which units come back at what time you can get though the entire campaign just fine. You'll take some damage here or there, but the amount of prestige and specialist steps given to you should be enough to have most of your units at high to full strength. If you take losses which are unsustainable then metaing isn't going to help you really. The tables of when which units return is nice, and i commend the creator's dedication, but that's not what's going to make or break your game.