Game Unit Suggestions

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JBerg2021
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Game Unit Suggestions

Unread postby JBerg2021 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:16 pm

I've been Making my way through the campaign on "Normal" and I've noticed a couple of things that I would like to suggest for how units are structured.

So I appreciate the difference between a smaller Combat Command for the US 2nd and 3rd Armored units, since these were the large US armored divisions during the war (twice as many tanks). However, I've noticed that the 1st Armored Division doesn't get the same treatment, even though before it landed in Italy, it was also of the same size as the 2nd and 3rd Armored. This is obviously really only an issue in the Tunis battle, but if you're thinking of expanding to map out Operation Torch it could be something to change (though I'm not sure if that would cause continuity issues for the unit in Italy, but it doesn't seem a major issue to just treat the landing of the 1st Armored as a new unit history).

Expanding on the idea of Combat Commands, I feel like the brigade size units in game (and the Regimental Combat Teams) should get the same treatment. During the setup portion of the battles, I've noticed that I can increase the size of a brigade to full division level, and I can also assign as many support battalions as a division. Limiting these to the same treatment as the combat commands could also open the door to simulating smaller operational battles that could use regiments and brigades as the base unit size (again, thinking of Torch, but there's plenty of other battles that could be set to this smaller scale).

Finally, I'm a little miffed about the potential size of German armored divisions. SS Panzer divisions were definitely larger and more robust (mostly in terms of support battalions, but also in base size), but the regular panzer divisions were usually only 6 battalions in size. They should be limited at most to the same size as a US Armored Division - I've been tired of watching size 4 Panzer Divisions increase to size 7 in a city just as I've started to make a push to capture. I know a lot of this is likely due to game balancing efforts, but this is just a suggestion to limit the power of the German Panzer divisions just a bit in the campaign.

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Danielefc
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Re: Game Unit Suggestions

Unread postby Danielefc » Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:43 pm

Yea, 1st US Armored is not divided into Combat Commands because it was restructured into a "light" division as you mention. Since units carry over their XP, steps and specs it would require some form of almagamation of the two CCs in 1944. It turned out to be a rabbit hole of complexity for very little gain.

Brigades for the Commonwealth and Poland is on the drawing board. :) They will be limited to 4 steps and 2 specs similar to the US CCs (But this won't happen before new years).

RE: steps and German armor.

Steps are abstractions of a unit's combat value and by design don't represent any actual divisional component. The larger size of SS divisions (when actually up to strength) is modeled through their slightly better stats and not through steps. Also note that 1 German step =/= 1 Allied step. German divisions have their artillery and other support units abstracted into their steps. Almost all of their specs represent corps/army level support. The Allies on the other hand have much of their combat power tied down in their specs. Their initial 1 arty+1AT spec is meant as "sort of organic". In the end it all comes down to how the different factions play. German are good for quick reactions and powerful armored attacks. Allies are good on the defense but can be slightly cumbersome in the attack.

As for German armor in cities, I agree that it can be a bit over the top sometimes. We will be looking in to this in the future. But have not decided on any "course of action" yet.

Cheers :)

JBerg2021
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Re: Game Unit Suggestions

Unread postby JBerg2021 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:05 pm

Re: 1st Armored - I definitely understand it's probably more trouble than it's worth.

Re: Brigades - That's awesome to hear!

Re: German Armor.

Is there a limit below 7 for the SS Panzer Divisions? I ask only because I've been looking at the combat specs, and the 10 attack value for those divisions is crazy high! I understand once you consider the inherent differences and the elite nature of the SS in the Wehrmacht, but an allied armored division can only top out at 56, but an SS Panzer could attack as high as 70. Are there background limits on SS Panzer steps that keeps those divisions from growing so high, or is the Armored step adjustment from allied AT enough to negate that difference? I admit I don't entirely understand the armored adjustment mechanic in combat.

JBerg2021
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Re: Game Unit Suggestions

Unread postby JBerg2021 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:15 pm

Also, I do want to give you all major props for simulating the more modular construction of the Allied Army. I've been waiting for years to see a world war 2 game manage to do this. I love all the support battalions and the ability to mix and match to create assault divisions, defense divisions, or more mobile divisions. It really is excellent and I love that aspect of the game.

Adronio
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Re: Game Unit Suggestions

Unread postby Adronio » Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:29 am

Regarding armour defending cities, you could also give them the same -1/-2 combat shift that mechanised/Armoured divisions get attacking into cities, right? That seems like an easy and logical enough choice.

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Re: Game Unit Suggestions

Unread postby genBrooks » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:36 am

Re: German armor
I wouldn't overestimate the SS panzer division with its strength, in 1944-45 (after Normandy) were most often Kampfgruppen (KG "Harmel" at Arnhem, KG "Peiper" in Ardennes, the same during offensive at Balaton Lake etc.), had about 3500 soldiers, 70-80 tanks and 100- 150 halftracks
I wonder how would you show the Japanese infantry division in the game, which had 35-40 thousand of soldiers - you would probably divide it into regiments and so-called. mixed brigades?

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Danielefc
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Re: Game Unit Suggestions

Unread postby Danielefc » Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:53 pm

JBerg2021 wrote:Re: 1st Armored - I definitely understand it's probably more trouble than it's worth.

Re: Brigades - That's awesome to hear!

Re: German Armor.

Is there a limit below 7 for the SS Panzer Divisions? I ask only because I've been looking at the combat specs, and the 10 attack value for those divisions is crazy high! I understand once you consider the inherent differences and the elite nature of the SS in the Wehrmacht, but an allied armored division can only top out at 56, but an SS Panzer could attack as high as 70. Are there background limits on SS Panzer steps that keeps those divisions from growing so high, or is the Armored step adjustment from allied AT enough to negate that difference? I admit I don't entirely understand the armored adjustment mechanic in combat.


Armored shifts only apply in the attack. This means the Axis usually get atleast a +1 armored shift bonus when attacking allied armor. But the system is more complicated than that. Full strength Panzer Divisions are a rarity and they have limited reinforcements available just like the player (however these don't carry over and are set on a per scenario basis). Stragglers are used for reinforcing by the AI as well of course. Reinforcing their units eats away veterancy just like for the player. Having only one spec is a big limiting factor for the axis as well. For quick reference here is a list of the different factions and their unit max step/spec limitations:

All Axis Divisions: 7 steps + 1 specs
Allied Divisions: 6 steps + 3 specs (this means you can theoretically get an engineering bonus, arty shift, armored shift and veterancy shift if you fully "pimp out" a vet/elite division)
Allied Combat Commands (+brigades once they arrive): 4 steps + 2 specs

If you put a 7-step SS Panzer-Division up against a 6-step Allied Armored division then the numbers look heavily skewed in the Germans favor (70 vs 30 in attack). But these numbers can be misleading as things are not so "symmetrical". Firstly the Allied armor will be fighting against the defensive value which is maxed out at 49 for the SS-PzD. Next we have to take into account that the standard "loadout" of an allied armored division: This includes 1 SP arty spec and 1 Recon spec. The SS armor value negates any chance of the allies getting an armor shift. BUT the allied division does get a +2 arty shift. This tilts the combat results table rather significantly. In essence you end up with a much more even fight.

If the tables are turned and the panzers are attacking, then the Germans enjoy an armor shift bonus and a very high organic attack value (but no artillery shifts). This makes Panzer & SS divisions *very* scary on the attack - specially against infantry in the open with no AT. Even AT might not be enough if caught in the open by full strength panzer divisions... Talking units in Overlord like: Panzer Lehr, 12. SS, 2. SS etc. But this is the axis faction "speciality" - and is pretty much all they have to "count on" in terms of attacking.

All of these numbers don't exist in a vacuum: The Allies get early and "cheap" suppressive fire that they can utilize on a much larger scale due to their abundance of arty specs. They have almost a monopoly on airstrikes and they have many more divisions available to them. The SS and Panzer Divisions are essentially the "boss fights" that they arguably were in real life.

In my opinion the system only struggles when panzer divisions move in to defend city hexes. This is because "raw numbers" suddenly start counting more as most most shifts are negated by city terrain... and god help you if the city turns to rubble. As I said before, we will be looking into this. For now - a few feint attacks can work wonders. (specially comboed with a set-piece at the end).

Cheers :)

(https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steam/a ... 1573842631 section 3.3 of the manual has more info on the combat system)

Adronio wrote:Regarding armour defending cities, you could also give them the same -1/-2 combat shift that mechanised/Armoured divisions get attacking into cities, right? That seems like an easy and logical enough choice.


Yea, something like this might be added. But we will have to do some extensive testing first. The current system might feel slightly off... But it still works, so we have to be careful :)

genBrooks wrote:Re: German armor
I wouldn't overestimate the SS panzer division with its strength, in 1944-45 (after Normandy) were most often Kampfgruppen (KG "Harmel" at Arnhem, KG "Peiper" in Ardennes, the same during offensive at Balaton Lake etc.), had about 3500 soldiers, 70-80 tanks and 100- 150 halftracks
I wonder how would you show the Japanese infantry division in the game, which had 35-40 thousand of soldiers - you would probably divide it into regiments and so-called. mixed brigades?


Yea both Panzer Divisions and SS-Panzer Divisions are often overrated. Late war they were mostly severely understrength as you say. On top of this they were also made up of a weird mix of dedicated fanatics, veterans... and green and un-motivated conscripts (at times even forced into service).

Adronio
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Re: Game Unit Suggestions

Unread postby Adronio » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:42 pm

Good analysis, however...

Danielefc wrote:The SS armor value negates any chance of the allies getting an armor shift.


You can actually get around that by using SPAT specialist steps like the M10, since that'll negate the panzer divisions armour shifts. This lets you beat even strong panzer divisions handily in open terrain.

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Re: Game Unit Suggestions

Unread postby sourdust » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:23 am

Danielefc wrote:...
If the tables are turned and the panzers are attacking, then the Germans enjoy an armor shift bonus and a very high organic attack value (but no artillery shifts). This makes Panzer & SS divisions *very* scary on the attack - specially against infantry in the open with no AT. Even AT might not be enough if caught in the open by full strength panzer divisions... Talking units in Overlord like: Panzer Lehr, 12. SS, 2. SS etc. But this is the axis faction "speciality" - and is pretty much all they have to "count on" in terms of attacking.

All of these numbers don't exist in a vacuum: The Allies get early and "cheap" suppressive fire that they can utilize on a much larger scale due to their abundance of arty specs. They have almost a monopoly on airstrikes and they have many more divisions available to them. The SS and Panzer Divisions are essentially the "boss fights" that they arguably were in real life.

In my opinion the system only struggles when panzer divisions move in to defend city hexes. This is because "raw numbers" suddenly start counting more as most most shifts are negated by city terrain... and god help you if the city turns to rubble. As I said before, we will be looking into this. For now - a few feint attacks can work wonders. (specially comboed with a set-piece at the end).
...


I think the idea of the Wehrmacht's main strength being its panzer divisions is correct up through early 1943. After that, the panzer divisions - even the tough SS divisions - were totally underwhelming on the attack! They were still tough formations, but both the Allies and Russians had developed countermeasures and improved doctrines that basically neutralised the blitzkrieg. The battle of the bulge is a great example - massed elite formations were held up for days by outnumbered but tenacious American defenders. 12SS shattered at Elsenborn Ridge, 1SS cut into pieces after very thin initial success, 2SS and others beat at their own game around Manhay, Lehr unable to take Bastogne, etc etc. Nor were the elite panzers any more successful on the Eastern Front - smashed back at Kursk, and never had a major offensive success thereafter. Mortain, Balaton, none of it got anywhere close to success - and in fact in all these battles the elite Germans generally took equal or greater casualties.

The Wehrmacht's real main strength, certainly from 1943 on, was the tenacity of its formations on defence. Panzerfausts, an ability to regroup quickly and counterattack, and sheer doggedness made the German Army (whether infantry or panzer/PG formations) very tough to penetrate, and quick to rebound when defeated locally.

I think there is actually an argument for bolstering the germans on defence, and possibly weakening the panzer's attack value slightly. Perhaps the Germans should have some kind of mechanic like recovering one suppression hit before every normal combat or prepared assault where they are the defender.

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Danielefc
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Re: Game Unit Suggestions

Unread postby Danielefc » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:32 pm

sourdust wrote:I think the idea of the Wehrmacht's main strength being its panzer divisions is correct up through early 1943. After that, the panzer divisions - even the tough SS divisions - were totally underwhelming on the attack! They were still tough formations, but both the Allies and Russians had developed countermeasures and improved doctrines that basically neutralised the blitzkrieg. The battle of the bulge is a great example - massed elite formations were held up for days by outnumbered but tenacious American defenders. 12SS shattered at Elsenborn Ridge, 1SS cut into pieces after very thin initial success, 2SS and others beat at their own game around Manhay, Lehr unable to take Bastogne, etc etc. Nor were the elite panzers any more successful on the Eastern Front - smashed back at Kursk, and never had a major offensive success thereafter. Mortain, Balaton, none of it got anywhere close to success - and in fact in all these battles the elite Germans generally took equal or greater casualties.

The Wehrmacht's real main strength, certainly from 1943 on, was the tenacity of its formations on defence. Panzerfausts, an ability to regroup quickly and counterattack, and sheer doggedness made the German Army (whether infantry or panzer/PG formations) very tough to penetrate, and quick to rebound when defeated locally.

I think there is actually an argument for bolstering the germans on defence, and possibly weakening the panzer's attack value slightly. Perhaps the Germans should have some kind of mechanic like recovering one suppression hit before every normal combat or prepared assault where they are the defender.


I think "underwhelming on the attack" is a bit of an exaggeration ;) But I get what you are saying and yes post 1943 things started to lag in the good ol' panzer divisions. Indeed the Battle of the Bulge is my favorite example to use when confronted by the SS-super-soldier myth. I think(?) it was a largest concentration of (not completely battered) SS divisions in the war and they got absolutely no where. And as you mention, all the other offensives (from Kursk and onwards) usually achieved a slight shock effect... and then either got stuck or routed. But if you look at it from a game-play perspective this is usually what happens: The Germans attack and "give you a scare", but they never really have the power to hold or follow up on these efforts. "The Allies are fighting a long war - the Germans a short one".