Kursk-Orel singleplayer beta - UPDATED 3/2

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Danielefc
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Re: Kursk-Orel singleplayer beta - UPDATED 26/1

Unread postby Danielefc » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:32 pm

ComradeP wrote:With so many (fairly) good units for both sides the IGOUGO system shows its primary weakness as you might take an objective with your own quality unit, whilst the opponent will just take it back with his. I attacked Ponyri from the west and had not really suffered any losses worth mentioning yet (I think I lost 2 infantry divisions that I used as a screen), but the Soviets sending everything they had after me removed even the elite Panzer division from the game.


Yea - the best thing to do here is to make the AI bleed itself dry counterattacking into the best defensive units you have - just not the one division you decide to beef up with tigers for the (hopefully) final capture of Ponyri on turn 3. I rarely use the infantry as screens here since they will be obliterated by the Soviet Tank Corps - and that then leaves holes in the line.

In essence its meant to be a back and forth battle of attrition (as it kind of was). As long as the player keeps on the pressure on all three fronts (Alexandrovka-Obojan-Ponyri) - then the timely capture of all objectives is possible in almost every playthrough (ie not good-rolls dependant).

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Re: Kursk-Orel singleplayer beta - UPDATED 26/1

Unread postby juoc » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:58 pm

I just played the updated version and found a weakness you might want to address. The AI leaves a gap in the line when going for Klen. The 14th Infantry division was allowed to cross the bridge at Kaluga at the end of turn 3 and the AI reinforcements that arrived south of the bridge didn't know what to do so I missed out on a desperate situation in the north the last few turns, which would have been fun. Sure, I could have been more sportsmanlike but when I see a chance to cut supply lines you better believe I'm going to take it! :)

So, some entrenched Infantry south of the bridge maybe?

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Re: Kursk-Orel singleplayer beta - UPDATED 26/1

Unread postby Danielefc » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:47 am

juoc wrote:I just played the updated version and found a weakness you might want to address. The AI leaves a gap in the line when going for Klen. The 14th Infantry division was allowed to cross the bridge at Kaluga at the end of turn 3 and the AI reinforcements that arrived south of the bridge didn't know what to do so I missed out on a desperate situation in the north the last few turns, which would have been fun. Sure, I could have been more sportsmanlike but when I see a chance to cut supply lines you better believe I'm going to take it! :)

So, some entrenched Infantry south of the bridge maybe?



Thanks! I'll have a look at this along with the that Donetz approach issue ComradeP mentioned. Might be a a couple of days depending on how much of a girl I am - just got the flu :cry:

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Re: Kursk-Orel singleplayer beta - UPDATED 26/1

Unread postby Danielefc » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:55 am

Well - turns out my girly side can be set aside :D

Here is a new test version

Changelog:

--AI tweaks by Alexandrovka and Ponyri
--Bridge added south of Alexandrovka to add a (theoretical) threat from this area
--Static Unit added south of Kaluga bridge


Question for those with the patience to try this new version:

--Does the AI run out of units too fast in the Kursk bulge with these new tweaks?
--Any and all flaws are as always more than welcome to brought to my attention :)

New version is available in the first post of this thread

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Re: Kursk-Orel singleplayer beta - UPDATED 29/1

Unread postby ComradeP » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:46 am

The AI attacks more than in the previous version, which isn't necessarily bad, although it also attacks in directions which don't really put pressure on my offensive. I still had to move through a wall of units to get to Kursk, and capturing Kursk can depend on getting good rolls.

I could've attacked it from 4 directions on the last turn, but 3 was luckily enough as I made some movement mistakes with the units at Ponyri.
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Re: Kursk-Orel singleplayer beta - UPDATED 29/1

Unread postby juoc » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:03 pm

Tried the new version and the northern sector works great now, as far as I can see :). I cut off supply around Kaluga at turn 4, using 3 infantry units this time, and the AI reestablished supply. The AI took Klen once and broke through to Orel so I had to divert two armored units from Kursk to help out. The front between Smolensk and Briansk can be abandoned, so maybe put an objective there too, if you're feeling particularly sadistic?

I managed to not lose a single armored step in the south by positioning units with defensive specialist steps at the front line at turn 1 and then reorganizing specialist steps from infantry to the armored units without, the following turns. The AI only attacked once the entire time in the south but on the other hand I progressed slowly and just achieved a normal victory at turn 5.

This scenario really makes me want to play a completely defensive scenario where the objective is to not lose too much ground. Since nobody has made one, I assume it's not possible but the AI at least seems to be capable of launching an offensive given enough units.

Great work as always!

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Re: Kursk-Orel singleplayer beta - UPDATED 29/1

Unread postby Danielefc » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:07 pm

ComradeP wrote:The AI attacks more than in the previous version, which isn't necessarily bad, although it also attacks in directions which don't really put pressure on my offensive. I still had to move through a wall of units to get to Kursk, and capturing Kursk can depend on getting good rolls.

I could've attacked it from 4 directions on the last turn, but 3 was luckily enough as I made some movement mistakes with the units at Ponyri.



Cheers! And thanks for the replay. forgot to ask for those.

EDIT: Just watched the replay. Very well played :)! Nice work by Klen. I was a bit dissapointed by some of the AI's moves - noteably the lack of counterattacks in the Obojan area. But since you are a scenario desginer - and it was a close call - then all in all I'm pretty pleased.

juoc wrote:Tried the new version and the northern sector works great now, as far as I can see :). I cut off supply around Kaluga at turn 4, using 3 infantry units this time, and the AI reestablished supply. The AI took Klen once and broke through to Orel so I had to divert two armored units from Kursk to help out. The front between Smolensk and Briansk can be abandoned, so maybe put an objective there too, if you're feeling particularly sadistic?

I managed to not lose a single armored step in the south by positioning units with defensive specialist steps at the front line at turn 1 and then reorganizing specialist steps from infantry to the armored units without, the following turns. The AI only attacked once the entire time in the south but on the other hand I progressed slowly and just achieved a normal victory at turn 5.

This scenario really makes me want to play a completely defensive scenario where the objective is to not lose too much ground. Since nobody has made one, I assume it's not possible but the AI at least seems to be capable of launching an offensive given enough units.

Great work as always!


Cheer for the feedback!

Yea - if the player waits and repositions all the specialist steps then things will turn out differently. Having so many units involved in the scenario means this is hard to avoid. But setting a tight schedule for the objectives should make a BV impossible if this is done. And thats good enough for me... What else than a BV is good enough? :D

I thought about adding an objective in Orel but decided against it early on, since if the player does abandon this area then the Soviet tank re-inforcements can get over the river into open country and should then head for the supply hex and Chotynetz. This worked in the tests i ran. Will try it again to make sure. Might revisit this choice regarding objectives but I'm unsure about setting more objectives, since I don't want to force the player's hands too much.

Man you succeeded in cutting Kaluga supply again :). Do you mind sending a replay of this. Tried to recreate it but turns out we must play this very differently. Glad to hear that the AI retook it tho!

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Re: Kursk-Orel singleplayer beta - UPDATED 29/1

Unread postby juoc » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:44 pm

Danielefc wrote:Man you succeeded in cutting Kaluga supply again :). Do you mind sending a replay of this. Tried to recreate it but turns out we must play this very differently. Glad to hear that the AI retook it tho!

Of course. A replay is just the last save game, right?

To clarify, I never took out the unit south of the bridge, just cut supply.
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Re: Kursk-Orel singleplayer beta - UPDATED 29/1

Unread postby Danielefc » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:27 am

juoc wrote:
Danielefc wrote:Man you succeeded in cutting Kaluga supply again :). Do you mind sending a replay of this. Tried to recreate it but turns out we must play this very differently. Glad to hear that the AI retook it tho!

Of course. A replay is just the last save game, right?

To clarify, I never took out the unit south of the bridge, just cut supply.


Yup. And thanks a bunch! These replays are invaluable - specially in a large scenario like this one. Not only is it large but its also sort of "fighting the game engine". The AI is not programmed to handle offensive operations on this scale.

Anyway - I'm considering one of the following two things:

1. Moving Orel Salient supply into Orel

pros:
--Will make Smolensk supply route vital. (Orel Salient supply will no longer reach the forces by bryansk)
--Will add vital importance to the town of Orel
cons:
--Forces in Orel Salient will not be cut off from supply when/if Chotynetz area is lost.

2. Removing Orel Salient supply completely; and making one of the hexes south of Bryansk "unplayable"

pros:
--Will make Smolensk supply route vital
--Will remove the second supply source in north - which is in essence a work-a-round for the lack of a rail connection between Orel and Bryansk.

cons:
--Its ugly to have an unplayable hex. But this is necessary as the railroad heading south from bryansk will do a way too good job of supplying the Orel Salient otherwise
--It opens up a large supply source for the player, as Smolensk supply route will have to be considerable enlarged. (this can quickly become a source of exploits)


So far I'm leaning towards solution nr.1 as the objectives just east of Bryansk means this area cannot be abandoned. That the forces heading to Kursk from the North are still in supply (if chotynetz is lost) will have to be the trade-off.... On second thought I don't like the idea of letting players leave a huge hole north of Orel... Hmmm... decisions decisions...

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Re: Kursk-Orel singleplayer beta - UPDATED 29/1

Unread postby ComradeP » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:58 am

The AI often keeps attacking towards a certain objective even if it would've been more practical to secure the flanks first. As far as I know, there's not much that can be done about that in the current engine.


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