[BT] Turn of the Tide - Multiplayer scenario - Beta

Post your scenarios here.
JeffinMNUSA
Captain
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:53 pm

Re: [BT] Turn of the Tide - Multiplayer scenario - Beta

Unread postby JeffinMNUSA » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:13 pm

Mystery solved! Thanks Daniel!
JEffinMNUSA
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

juoc
Major
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:34 pm

Re: [BT] Turn of the Tide - Multiplayer scenario - Beta

Unread postby juoc » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:46 pm

I just created an account to thank you for your excellent scenarios Danielefc. They were like a free expansion, great work!

User avatar
Danielefc
2x2 Games
Posts: 1142
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: [BT] Turn of the Tide - Multiplayer scenario - Beta

Unread postby Danielefc » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:27 pm

juoc wrote:I just created an account to thank you for your excellent scenarios Danielefc. They were like a free expansion, great work!


Cheers! :) Means alot! - alot of "work" go into them.

Mandrake48
First Lieutenant
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:26 pm

Re: [BT] Turn of the Tide - Multiplayer scenario - Beta

Unread postby Mandrake48 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:38 am

This scenario looks absolutely amazing. As someone who only plays single player - and I know I'm asking a lot here, as the engine isn't designed for this - but if there's any way you can transform this, or part of this, into a single player scenario that would be fantastic. Big fan of your scenarios, thanks very much for all your work :D

Edit: I know you've done the specific counter-attack, which is an amazing scenario, but I'd love there to be consequences for pulling back your northern flank - no idea if that's possible!

User avatar
Danielefc
2x2 Games
Posts: 1142
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: [BT] Turn of the Tide - Multiplayer scenario - Beta

Unread postby Danielefc » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:00 am

Mandrake48 wrote:This scenario looks absolutely amazing. As someone who only plays single player - and I know I'm asking a lot here, as the engine isn't designed for this - but if there's any way you can transform this, or part of this, into a single player scenario that would be fantastic. Big fan of your scenarios, thanks very much for all your work :D

Edit: I know you've done the specific counter-attack, which is an amazing scenario, but I'd love there to be consequences for pulling back your northern flank - no idea if that's possible!


Hi - and thanks :)

The bad news: I've tried to make this work for single player - and it does not. It really really does not. The AI in UoC is very good. But once the scenarios get bigger it starts having issues. And the fact that the AI has to manage the axis forces makes it all even worse as unit preservation is not the AIs strong suit. (Unit preservation is the most important thing for ze germanz in this one...). Just making the AI retreat its forces from the lower Caucasus was a nightmare of an "AI hints maze". Anyway - long story short - its not possible. At some point I might try and make a slightly enlarged Wintergewitter/ slightly smaller Turn of the Tide... But its not on the drawing board atm.

The good news: I'm currently working on a "Battle of Kursk" scenario - and its big - not as big as Turn of the Tide, but still big. It differs from the Red Turn and user created variants in many ways. The most important way is that it incorporates the Orel Salient. And I think you'll appreciate this because it adds some of the effect you where talking about with regards to the northern flank in "Wintergewitter".

Much like with the historical operation "Wintergewitter"; the biggest reason for operation "Zitadelle" being finally called off was Soviet offensives elsewhere. In the case of Wintergewitter it was the Soviet operation "Little Saturn". In Zitadelle's case it was the Soviet attack into the northern flank of the Orel salient (and the allied landings in Sicily). I was worried whether or not it was possible to make the AI conduct such an operation. But so far its been a success - and I think this scenario will be ready within the next couple of days.

A screenshot below - its a work in progress and some things will change - but it gives a good impression of what the scenario will be like. Note that the Soviets recieve atleast 8 tank corps plus some infantry corps as re-inforcements on turn 1 & 3. Some for the Kursk salient but must of them north-east of Orel. So that northern flank will be hit with 9 tank corps and a mass of infantry... Now try to keep attacking kursk from the north ;)

Image

User avatar
spillblood
Major General
Posts: 496
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 4:01 pm
Contact:

Re: [BT] Turn of the Tide - Multiplayer scenario - Beta

Unread postby spillblood » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:11 am

Wow, just looking at it makes me want to play it with someone. Looks great! And actually if you look at other posts at the forum this broadened view of the situation is what Tomislav planned (he was originally going to make a Wintergewitter/ Winter Tempest scenario himself):
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=658&p=2767&hilit=winter+tempest#p2767

Will there be a MP version of this Kursk scenario as well?

User avatar
Danielefc
2x2 Games
Posts: 1142
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: [BT] Turn of the Tide - Multiplayer scenario - Beta

Unread postby Danielefc » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:24 pm

spillblood wrote:Wow, just looking at it makes me want to play it with someone. Looks great! And actually if you look at other posts at the forum this broadened view of the situation is what Tomislav planned (he was originally going to make a Wintergewitter/ Winter Tempest scenario himself):
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=658&p=2767&hilit=winter+tempest#p2767

Will there be a MP version of this Kursk scenario as well?


Cheers :)

I am planning on a MP version (it actually started out as one) - but am just having a short break and actually playing the game for a change :D (been making scenarios non-stop since late Black turn beta)

sourdust
Brigadier General
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:30 am

Re: [BT] Turn of the Tide - Multiplayer scenario - Beta

Unread postby sourdust » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:13 pm

Looks great, I'm going to give it a few playthroughs to get you some feedback.

At first glance, the Caucasus front looks like a good representation of the historical situation, which I've just had a close look at to develop my much more modest "Operation Gory/More" single player scenario. Just a few minor details:

1) Situation maps show the front remaining very close to Novorossisk for this whole period; the Soviets should be no more than one hex away. This creates some complications, because the UoC map is a bit inaccurate in terms of rail lines down there. (The rail line doesn't run from Novo. to Maikop through a southern route, as shown in UoC, rather it goes north across the river to Krasnodar.) This means that a historical front line has the Soviets sitting on the Novo. to Maikop rail line - but given the supply source at Taman, I think this isn't too much of a problem.

2) I couldn't find any evidence of a Soviet tank corp near Sochi, as you've placed it. I think the Russian Forces in this area were pretty much all infantry with a few attached tank brigades, but maybe I've overlooked something...

3) The Germans should have 5th Luftwaffe Field Division around Krasnodar.

4) I allowed the Axis a "Taman command" unit to represent the large variety of miscellaneous troops in the Taman port area after the 17th Army pulled back to the Kuban Peninsula. Similarly, the Axis down there should be toughened up a bit, perhaps by a 88 flak attachment at Novorossisk. That should really be a tough nut to crack, given it held out for another 8 months!

Cheers

sourdust
Brigadier General
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:30 am

Re: [BT] Turn of the Tide - Multiplayer scenario - Beta

Unread postby sourdust » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:17 am

Some first impressions after a single playthrough (played against myself...)

AAR: Initial 8 turns were rollicking good fun, I honestly had no idea who was winning. In the first few turns, the Germans elect to continue on with Wintergewitter and actually manage to reach Stalingrad. The swirling armoured battle around Stalingrad sees both sides lose many of their toughest formations. In the end, about 4 German divisions are extricated from Stalingrad, but both sides take severe losses. Meanwhile, the Soviets breakthrough in force around Millerovo, headed towards Rostov, and eventually a few breakthroughs further north.

In response, the German survivors from the Stalingrad fight assemble south of Milleroro, together with some other reinforcements. The main Soviet armor is in a large grouping north of Millerovo. Around turn 8, the Russians decide to try to pocket the Germans by crossing the Donets towards Rostov, which they succeed in doing. But the Germans intend in cutting off the spearhead, which they also succeed in doing. I thought the Russians would be able to reopen the pocket, having left some armoured reserves for just such an eventuality, but no such luck. The cream of the Soviet army is eventually rounded up in that pocket.

Further north, a see-saw battle sees heavy losses all around, but the Germans manage to hold the line at Orel, and the Soviets got no further than Kursk. The Caucasus are the only bright spot for the Soviets, with the axis forces steadily pushed back. By turn 12, the writing is on the wall for the Soviets, having lost their army in the centre. Retreat turns to rout, and the Germans make it back to their starting positions by the end, including retaking Stalingrad on turns 17 and 18. Only in the south are the Soviets successful, managing to take Taman on turn 16 and Novorossisyk a few turns earlier.

I think I overestimated the depth of Soviet reserves on the first playthrough. There are lots of Russian reinforcements initially, but as the game progresses replacements are scarce, unless units are disbanded. I was too rash with the Soviet armour in particular.

Comments on the scenario:
1) On the whole, I think it is well balanced, despite the lopsided German victory in my first go. The first 8-10 turns were touch-and-go, and the scenario has the right feel, with Germans rushing to fill gaps all over the place, and grand battles of maneuver emerging on the Don steppes.

2) The German re-supply capability is a huge advantage, especially if the Germans don't use it all up on Stalingrad defenders. In my game, the German panzers were able to range behind Soviet lines basically without regard to supply at all. This is a bit ahistorical - there's a difference between resupplying fixed defenders via the Stalingrad airfields (possible), and "paradropping" supplies to panzer divisions on the move (not possible). But I don't know how you'd fix that - the resupply capability is needed to model the Stalingrad siege correctly. For real P2P games, I'd suggest a house rule that limits the use of resupply to German units outside the Stalingrad pocket.

3) You might want to check supply in the Caucausus, I found in poor weather that the Soviets had real trouble with supply of their troops near Novorossisyk, even in the start positions. I'd give another few points to the Sochi supply point, and perhaps a few more to the German supply point at Taman as well.

4) I wondered about the troops in the Crimea - given there is no capability in the game to ship them across from Kerch, perhaps it would be better to have them either show up as timed reinforcements at the front, or not have them at all? I imagine it would be unrealistic to all the Axis to strip the Crimea of defenders altogether.

5) There are a couple of random unplayable hexes in the middle of the map - they are in out-of-the-way places so they don't interefere with the game, but you might want to tidy them up. I spotted one in the north of Crimea, one SW of Orzhonikidze, and one W of Tambov.

6) I think it would be very difficult as the Germans to hold on to the Taman peninsula against a reasonable Soviet effort. Not quite sure what the solution is, but it feels like an easy 300 points for the Soviets down there, with not much the Germans can do unless they want to keep all of Army Group A in the region.

7) Bloody well done! Nice and ambitious scenario design indeed.

User avatar
Danielefc
2x2 Games
Posts: 1142
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: [BT] Turn of the Tide - Multiplayer scenario - Beta

Unread postby Danielefc » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:23 am

sourdust wrote:Some first impressions after a single playthrough (played against myself...)

AAR: Initial 8 turns were rollicking good fun, I honestly had no idea who was winning. In the first few turns, the Germans elect to continue on with Wintergewitter and actually manage to reach Stalingrad. The swirling armoured battle around Stalingrad sees both sides lose many of their toughest formations. In the end, about 4 German divisions are extricated from Stalingrad, but both sides take severe losses. Meanwhile, the Soviets breakthrough in force around Millerovo, headed towards Rostov, and eventually a few breakthroughs further north.

In response, the German survivors from the Stalingrad fight assemble south of Milleroro, together with some other reinforcements. The main Soviet armor is in a large grouping north of Millerovo. Around turn 8, the Russians decide to try to pocket the Germans by crossing the Donets towards Rostov, which they succeed in doing. But the Germans intend in cutting off the spearhead, which they also succeed in doing. I thought the Russians would be able to reopen the pocket, having left some armoured reserves for just such an eventuality, but no such luck. The cream of the Soviet army is eventually rounded up in that pocket.

Further north, a see-saw battle sees heavy losses all around, but the Germans manage to hold the line at Orel, and the Soviets got no further than Kursk. The Caucasus are the only bright spot for the Soviets, with the axis forces steadily pushed back. By turn 12, the writing is on the wall for the Soviets, having lost their army in the centre. Retreat turns to rout, and the Germans make it back to their starting positions by the end, including retaking Stalingrad on turns 17 and 18. Only in the south are the Soviets successful, managing to take Taman on turn 16 and Novorossisyk a few turns earlier.

I think I overestimated the depth of Soviet reserves on the first playthrough. There are lots of Russian reinforcements initially, but as the game progresses replacements are scarce, unless units are disbanded. I was too rash with the Soviet armour in particular.

Comments on the scenario:
1) On the whole, I think it is well balanced, despite the lopsided German victory in my first go. The first 8-10 turns were touch-and-go, and the scenario has the right feel, with Germans rushing to fill gaps all over the place, and grand battles of maneuver emerging on the Don steppes.

2) The German re-supply capability is a huge advantage, especially if the Germans don't use it all up on Stalingrad defenders. In my game, the German panzers were able to range behind Soviet lines basically without regard to supply at all. This is a bit ahistorical - there's a difference between resupplying fixed defenders via the Stalingrad airfields (possible), and "paradropping" supplies to panzer divisions on the move (not possible). But I don't know how you'd fix that - the resupply capability is needed to model the Stalingrad siege correctly. For real P2P games, I'd suggest a house rule that limits the use of resupply to German units outside the Stalingrad pocket.

3) You might want to check supply in the Caucausus, I found in poor weather that the Soviets had real trouble with supply of their troops near Novorossisyk, even in the start positions. I'd give another few points to the Sochi supply point, and perhaps a few more to the German supply point at Taman as well.

4) I wondered about the troops in the Crimea - given there is no capability in the game to ship them across from Kerch, perhaps it would be better to have them either show up as timed reinforcements at the front, or not have them at all? I imagine it would be unrealistic to all the Axis to strip the Crimea of defenders altogether.

5) There are a couple of random unplayable hexes in the middle of the map - they are in out-of-the-way places so they don't interefere with the game, but you might want to tidy them up. I spotted one in the north of Crimea, one SW of Orzhonikidze, and one W of Tambov.

6) I think it would be very difficult as the Germans to hold on to the Taman peninsula against a reasonable Soviet effort. Not quite sure what the solution is, but it feels like an easy 300 points for the Soviets down there, with not much the Germans can do unless they want to keep all of Army Group A in the region.

7) Bloody well done! Nice and ambitious scenario design indeed.


Cheers for the elaborate feedback!!

Re:2.) Yea only solution here is a house rule as you mention - it could even be an elaborate one including penalties if Tatsinskaya is lost etc.

Re:3.) This is intentional - I wanted this front to be a lot more sluggish than the rest of the map.

Re:4.) Yea - they are not much use anyway and as you say then mildly speaking its doubtful the Germans would have stripped the Crimea hehe.

Re:5.) Damn... Thought I had cleared up all that stuff :( - you downloaded the scenario from the community page yea?

Re:6.) Well... Maybe the Soviets could have used some of that power further north :P. I'll give it a look though :).

Re:7.) Thanks :) feedback - good and bad - is ALWAYS more than welcome.

Cheers!