[RT] BARBAROSSA 41 (full Korps level campaign)

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nikdav
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[RT] BARBAROSSA 41 (full Korps level campaign)

Unread postby nikdav » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:23 am

Version beta 01 (22 june 2013) after 72 years from sunday 22 june 1941.
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- It is a working project and so number of turns (actually 44 ) and map border can change with testing results.
- My objective is to test the AI possibility with bigger and longer scenarios.
- This is a Korps level BARBAROSSA 1941 campaign.
- Every unit is historical with the commander name on 22 june 1941
- The first AI turns are a little longer (till 10 min.) but the AI moves are interesting,
and you can prepare your next turn more carefully.

- there are 9 objectives :
Minsk, Smolensk, Kiev, Kharkov,Odessa, Sevastopol, Rostov, Leningrad, Moskow

Unit Type:
AGN = Army Group North
AGC = Army Group Center
AGS = Army Group South

NW Front = North Western Front
etc.....
XX = 20th korp
LVII = 57th korp
etc......

A = Army
CC = cavalry corp
AC = airborne corp
RC = rifle corp
MC = mechanized corp
FR = fortified region


Any suggestion is very appreciated
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Last edited by nikdav on Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nebulas
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Re: [RT] BARBAROSSA 41 (full Korps level campaign)

Unread postby Nebulas » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:22 pm

Nice job!
Its an interesting idear to creat this scenario on korps level.
Did you use only the attached tactical map as template?

My suggestion is that some korps are out of supply from start up.
I dont think this is historical correct.

Maybe you get some idears for your work if you check my posts.
I used the original OKW tactical maps on division level.
I also tried to creat the complette scenario but the AI is working to slow, so i splitted it in the main parts of frontline displacement.

Cheers,
Neb

nikdav
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Re: [RT] BARBAROSSA 41 (full Korps level campaign)

Unread postby nikdav » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:29 pm

- I use at least 30 maps from various source and books on Barbarossa (Glantz - Erichson - Clark - Taylor - Seth - Carell - ........)
- AGS is in no supply at start to avoid a premature attack from AGS - we need only a bridge on the right place......

here are some interesting maps, find in the web
AGN.jpg


AGC.jpg


AGS.jpg
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Tristan_He
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Re: [RT] BARBAROSSA 41 (full Korps level campaign)

Unread postby Tristan_He » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:54 pm

Agree with the previous post - it seems pretty strange to have units out of supply at the start. I hadn't worked out the bridge (will look again).

Generally the AI seems to be massively incompetent (and is therefore an accurate simulation of Russian generalship at that time). I won first time largely because the AI parked his best armour east of Lvov allowing me to encircle and destroy it. But this should not have been possible.

Russian armour in the Lvov area is very strong and should be decisive for a decent AI. German forces have no answer to these troops, even using aerial bombardment. For me the following could be improved: Give the Germans armour (perhaps this is a reflection of using a Corps rather than divisional structure, still I think it's a bit of a problem having a blitzkrieg without panzers); weaken Russian forces near Lvov (or strengthen German ones). The Germans also do not have enough forces to strike northwards towards Leningrad in a meaningful way especially with a Russian supply source at Tallinn. Fortunately it's possible to take Leningrad from Finland.

To increase the challenge, Russian resistance should progressively increase with winter troops from Siberia arriving. This could be simulated by giving the Russians better units in the later stages for the defence of Moscow.

Also the demo has too many turns - 35 turns is enough. Barbarossa should be a helter-skelter charge, not a slow grind.

Hope this helps, enjoyed this scenario nonetheless - I like the bigger more complex maps and the more strategic feel.

nikdav
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Re: [RT] BARBAROSSA 41 (full Korps level campaign)

Unread postby nikdav » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:18 am

Thanks !
my objective is to simulate the real Barbarossa that was lost by the Russians and not won by the Germans.
The German tanks are very obsolete in 1941 and every time a lone russian KV or t-34 was in the right hands full panzer division were stopped and only the 88mm a/a guns or Luftwaffe resolved the day.
The russian tanks were stopped only by Stukas, 88mm, engineer, and for the most part by lack of fuel and ammunition.

For example 6th Mech.Corp of General Khatskilevich (kia august 41) on 22 june had 1131 tanks (among the others 117 KV and 266 T34) but the Stalin purges had virtually eliminated every (80%) expert russian officer and so this force is without really coordinated control and supply. The russians are incapable to command big units and so soon they disbanded corps and tank divisions and created the Tank Brigades, more controllable with the few radios avaiable and too young officers.

I used only german motorized Korps for two reasons:
1) even during the Barwenkovo lozovaya operation in january 1942 the German Korps are officially "motorized"
2) the german Panzer Korps are too strong in UOC for the tanks used by the german in 1941 (Pz I (mg) - Pz II(20mm gun) - Pz 38 (37mm gun)
Pz III (37or50mm gun) and very few Pz IV ( 75mm short gun)
The inferiority of the german tanks is at a level that every intact captured russian tank was immediately manned by the german ( even the infantry divisions had a captured tank company)

A new beta2 in working progress had only 26 turns ( till september/october 1941 )and some objective change (eliminated Moskow-Leningrad-Rostov) (added Riga-Vilnius-Tallin) and so the AI work better.

Nikdav

nikdav
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Re: [RT] BARBAROSSA 41 (full Korps level campaign)

Unread postby nikdav » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:24 am

Version Beta02
This is the list of changes :

- reduced map;

- 26 turns ;

- objective ( Vilnius, Riga, Minsk, Smolensk, Kiev, Tallin, Briansk, Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk ) ;

- reworked supply depot;

- reworked reinforces;

and other little mod.

any comments and suggestion is very appreciated.

Nikdav
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72Ned
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Re: [RT] BARBAROSSA 41 (full Korps level campaign)

Unread postby 72Ned » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:31 pm

I gave your beta02 a try this morning but didn't play more than the first few turns before I gave up. I found the German units far too few and too weak to sustain any attack. Also, whenever I got going anywhere, the Soviet air attacks knocked out the attacking power of the spearhead units and my attack died. The only place where I got a blitzkrieg going was at AGN. Some possible suggestions:

1. Panzer units should be added for the Germans. Your post said the weaker tanks don't make for the combat power of the panzers but also consider that these were the most highly trained and proficient panzer troops at their zenith of power.
2. German units are too fragile. They fall apart easily from Soviet counter attacks. Make them stronger.
3. As an addition to 1) above, most of the German units should be elite due to their great experience. Their elite status would be lost later as they take their losses and get replacements.
4. Initial Soviet Tank and Mechanized units are far too strong for this stage of the war. Make them all Green with fewer steps in the beginning. If you want, leave a few units not-green to make up for isolated tough situations when T-34's were encountered early on.
5. The Soviets should have no airpower for quite a while as they lost their airforce in the initial attack.
6. I didn't play too far into the game to see what kind of reinforcements the Soviets were getting but if you weaken the Sov's as listed above, you can have lots of reinforcements showing up for them to make up for their initial losses. Initially, they can be green, then better trained to slow down the Germans.
7. One other poster also noted that there are German units out of supply at the beginning. This should be changed.

I see a lot of potential for this scenario. Just didn't have any initial blitzkrieg. I hope this helps but it is only based on the first few turns only.

Heinlager
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Re: [RT] BARBAROSSA 41 (full Korps level campaign)

Unread postby Heinlager » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:56 am

Tried beta 2, I like the improvements. Got all but 2 of the objectives on time.

My suggestions would be:

- Reduce the German reorganization limit. In only a few turns I had enough specialist steps and extra infantry in my force pool to keep every spearhead at maximum strength. In my opinion It would be more interesting to rely on the reinforcements you have planned and/or spending prestige.

- Change the supply sources. I think currently you can get one node up to about 16-18 which is eventually spread throughout your entire network. If you had some non-rail supply sources that were quite high along the front (to represent the initial build up of material) and then reduced the rail sources it might create some tension towards the end when the map is getting easier.

I think you've done a good job considering the limitations of this engine, it's really not designed for this scale :)

nikdav
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Re: [RT] BARBAROSSA 41 (full Korps level campaign)

Unread postby nikdav » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:26 pm

Thanks for your feedback , sadly every new option or mod take a long time to test,
but this is a very challenging scenario and i like the actual evolution of the game play.
We must consider that the order of battle is full historical, even the added step (enginer - STUG - Flak...).

When I assemble the OOB i was very surprised by the real strength of the russian units,
and we must consider that the Airborne corps and many frontline divisions are all very strong and experienced troops, many german commanders were shocked by the russian stubborn resistence and by the number of men they lost in the first two week of combat (german lost more men in june/ july 41 than in the past two years on all front).

Remember that the bestseller book of 1941in germany was about Napoleon 1812 retreat from Russia.
But now i return to beta 03 version.

Nikdav

michalek
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Re: [RT] BARBAROSSA 41 (full Korps level campaign)

Unread postby michalek » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:06 pm

There are several errors I perceive in this scenario:

1. German corps size corresponded to the Russian army. And a division corresponded to Russian corps.

2. According to the scenario there were no German panzer corps, nor divisions, which seems historically inaccurate.

3. If one wants to really simulate surprise attack in this scenario, then borderline and armoured units of Soviets should start with most counters suppressed.

4. Obsolete German panzers can be simulated better with low experience levels (e.g. green cross), few counters (3 or 4) and reinforcements.