Astrakhan (BETA 5) (moved from Beta test forum)

[ComradeP]

The BV limit is a bit generous, as unless mud turns up a BV by turn 4 is quite possible.

I'm 99.9% convinced that a BV on turn 3 is also possible, as I've cleared the Astrakhan hex a couple of times on that turn, but I keep running into the problem of not having a unit to actually move there.

That brings me to something that I don't really understand: when you hit space and have an action left, you should normally get extended movement. Sometimes after overruns you do have that option, and sometimes you don't. The times when, for some reason, it's not possible are especially annoying if it could've meant you would've occupied an objective (I've had 3 or 4 instances where I had a unit outside Astrakhan that should've been able to drive in, but couldn't as no additional movement was possible when I pressed space, even though the unit had an orange circle around it indicating that it could still act).

It could be that it's due to the unit having moved into ZOC, but if that's the case, it's kind of a pity that it's supposed to work like that, that a unit can never move again in the turn it has entered ZOC no matter what..

[Tomislav Uzelac]

Hm... I'm pretty sure there's no bug in something that basic. It could be either that the unit's AP is locked (grey thunderbolt) or there's a ZOC in the hex you're trying to enter. You can't enter ZOCs on extended movement at all.

Of course, if it's a bug I'd love to hear about it. But please check if it's not something along the lines of what I described first.

[ComradeP]

I see it after the unit moved into ZOC earlier that turn, so that might cancel movement completely, which would be unfortunate as it would significantly reduce the effectiveness of overruns on maneuvers (as you can't move again even if the ZOC is gone).

[Tomislav Uzelac]

Oh well, you're really picking apart some dirty designer secrets now

It would be nice, if the unit gets stuck in a ZOC and then subsequently overruns whoever exerted that ZOC, that the unit gets released (i.e. its AP is unlocked). Sounds natural.

But I can't do that because I don't know for sure whose ZOC it was in the first place. What if there was another unit also exerting ZOC into the same hex? And, for that matter, what if the AP was locked for some other reason, such as crossing a river or entering a mountain hex?

As discussed before, this game design is necessarily knife-edge because it tries to simulate many advanced effects while keeping the mechanics nice and simple. There's bound to be warts like that, or at least I haven't figured out a way to get rid of them completely.

[ComradeP]

So there's no way for the system to detect if there would be an enemy ZOC on the hex your unit is in if it were an enemy hex, because it can't check for ZOC on enemy hexes?

[Tomislav Uzelac]

There is no such system at the moment, no. I could code something, this is not the problem. The problem is that the unit only "remembers" that its AP is locked, not why it was locked. Check this example:

1. Your unit crosses a river and enters a ZOC of an enemy unit. AP is locked, for both reasons
2. Your unit then blasts the enemy unit with an overrun, and the enemy retreats
3. YOUR NEW RULE COMES INTO PLAY: we unlock the AP because of the overrun

This is the problem. We unlocked the AP, but it was locked because of the river crossing too, not just the overrun.

Obviously, we could add some hidden state to the unit to make the unit "remember" this detail. That I like even less, because it muddles the rules. Think about it if you were the player on the other side: you counted on that ZOC to stop at least one enemy unit for at least this turn. If we add this, you can't have that little bit of certainty to anchor your strategy and the complexity increases much more than you would guess possible from such a little change.

[willard]

I feel like a loser - 3 tries at this scenario and I just eke out a minor victory on turn 7!

[Tomislav Uzelac]

@willard: Comrade has surprised everyone here by how fast he mastered the mechanics of this game. I catch myself thinking I made the too easy... until I read the comments from just about everyone else that is

[ComradeP]

If the game could be made to remember why AP was locked, the case you mention would not be a problem because the game would first note that the unit crossed a river, which locked its AP, and in the process also moved into ZOC, which is irrelevant in terms of AP as it's already locked. A unit having a chance to use extended movement after an overrun after moving into ZOC would be something else than a unit moving across a non-bridged river, which ZOC or not automatically uses up all MP's. It might just be too difficult to code such a memory into the system a fairly short while before release, though.

For the record, I don't think the game is too easy, it requires a thorough understanding of the system, the strengths and weaknesses of your units and a general plan if you want to get any kind of decent victory.

If someone can't get an early victory in a number of tries, it doesn't mean he's a bad player, it just means that with more experience an early victory is possible for that player too. All systems take a while to get used to. To me, UoC's system feels natural because I've played many similar titles, so I only needed to learn about the unique elements of the game.

I'm very happy that I stumbled upon UoC, as I had as far as I know not really heard of it until I read about it in an article from Rock, Paper, Shotgun which also covered the legal dispute between EA and Slitherine (the initial reason for reading the article).

[Spooner]

I only heard about the game when RPS reported about the beta.

Also, I've played the game a shed-load, but I'm still nowhere near ComradeP's skill level. Doesn't mean it isn't fun or that replaying a scenario to get 20 more points (or do worse) isn't still a lot of fun! And although I'm reasonably competent now, I got repeatedly hammered by the AI at the start.